December 18, 1971
Good morning! Here, I was going through my handkerchiefs the other day, and kept three for you!
How are you? What’s news?
Well, they’ve stopped fighting in the west….[[On the Kashmir and Rajasthan front, that is, the road to West Pakistan, the heart of the trouble. ]]
(Mother nods her head)
Which means it’s not the end of the problem.
Again it won’t be for this time.
It won’t be done that way. I’ve seen how. It won’t be done through a battle: the different parts of Pakistan will demand separation. There are five of them. And by separating, they’ll join India — to form a sort of confederation. That’s how it will be done.
It will break up from within, yes, I see.
That’s right. That’s how it will be done.
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I saw it, I don’t remember what day (recently), all of a sudden, for several hours there was a contact with the Divine Power and Vision — it was … it was magnificent, things became extraordinary; then, immediately the next day, all the news changed. Really extraordinary. What actually took place isn’t what I saw, for it was seen years ahead…. But that doesn’t matter, it’s all right.
(Sujata comes in late.
Mother hands her the handkerchiefs, laughing)
These are my handkerchiefs!
We’re always in a hurry, because life on earth is short, but when you see what is in the offing … (vast, circular gesture). Really beautiful, much better! It takes more time, but it’s much better.
One of the things in the offing is the conversion of America, the United States, but it will take time.
The conversion of the United States.
Already, most of the country is against that president, but it has to become strong enough for that … particular policy to disappear.[[It will reappear ten years later, in 1981. ]]
In a word, as always, it has to go to absurd lengths for people to understand how false it is.
Yes. Yes.
Do you have anything?
Nothing…. Maybe some personal questions.
Well, ask.
I have the impression that for about a year now there has been
no creative force coming into me — no inspiration and no
creative force. I was speaking about it with Sujata a few days
ago, and she had a vision: she saw something like two enor
mous silver doors — which were closed. So I don’t know, I
wonder what that means. Why that closure?
(after a silence)
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Well, for some time there’s been much more insistence on personal transformation than on creation, for you. I have seen that. And it seems to me of capital importance, you understand?… There’s a special insistence on personal transformation. Which means that, when that is done, the creative work will be of a much, MUCH higher order.
So, I shouldn’t worry?
No, not at all. On the contrary.
Really, to put it childishly, the Divine Wisdom is far greater than ours. I perceive that constantly. We have a very short view of things — very short and limited. While the Divine Wisdom is…. You get such a feeling of not knowing anything when you compare your way of seeing to the Divine’s way of seeing (I am putting it rather childishly).
Yes, but practically, there are two possible attitudes with
respect to the creative force: either to be completely passive
and wait (but then, isn’t that passivity simply a kind of
inertia?), or else do as those who create do, that is, call the
Force and pull it down. In other words, they actively intervene to create.
There is a third attitude. It’s the best. To be very attentive; rather than being passive and inert, to be very attentive and alert. And then, to feel when the Impulsion to do something comes, and to do it. I have put that into practice these last few days, and that’s the solution. You see, the difficulty lies in having action WITHOUT the personal limitations — they are inextricably bound up in our consciousness, and the passivity you speak of is there to separate the two; but once you have … I don’t know, the perception or sensation of the state in which you are completely open to the Divine Impulsion, then you can allow action to take place again. And that is the solution.
It’s very difficult to explain, but I’ve had the experience recently (yesterday or the day before, it’s very recent), the experience of an attitude of unmixed receptivity — unmixed with any personal activity — an activity whose impulse comes only from the Divine (I had this in connection with the war, the current events, and that’s how I understood). But it’s beyond words.
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So, the things in the offing are a federation of all the states of India, and another one in the offing is the conversion of the United States. A federation of the states of India along the lines of The Ideal of Human Unity, as conceived and explained by Sri Aurobindo. And the conversion of the United States is in the same idea, just according to Sri Aurobindo’s revelation. But that will take time.
It came in an imperative way.
Also I heard something Sri Aurobindo wrote, where he says that in order for the Supermind to manifest on earth, the physical mind has to receive and manifest it. And the physical mind, I mean the bodily mind, mine, is precisely the only one I have left now. And so it came to me very clearly that that is why that one alone was left. And it is being converted very rapidly and interestingly. The physical mind [[Let us point out that Mother's "terminology" was not fixed, probably because the experience was in process, but she almost always means the BODILY MIND, as the remainder of the conversation shows. ]] is developing under the supramental influence. And it’s just what Sri Aurobindo wrote, that it was indispensable so the Supermind could manifest on earth in a permanent way.[[Perhaps Mother is referring to this text of Sri Aurobindo: "And there is too an obscure mind of the body, of the very cells, molecules, corpuscles. Haeckel, the German materialist, spoke somewhere of the will in the atom, and recent science, dealing with the incalculable individual variation in the activity of the electrons, comes near to perceiving that this is a very tangible truth; owing to its obscurity and mechanical clinging to past movements and facile oblivion and rejection of the new, we find in it one of the chief obstacles to permeation by the supermind Force and the transformation of the functioning of the body. On the other hand, once effectively converted, it will be one of the most precious instruments for the stabilisation of the supramental Light and Force in the material Nature." (XXII.340) ]]
So all’s well — it’s not easy! (Mother laughs) But all is well.
Yes, that’s just the problem I wondered about. You say that for
me, for instance, the insistence is on personal transformation
– well, I saw something ("I saw" — well, anyway I felt some
thing), I felt that the transformation (of the lower nature, for
example) is not really possible unless a sort of radical change
of position in the consciousness takes place, or a change of
vision….
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Yes.
… unless things and people are seen differently.
Yes, yes.
But then I wonder how it’s possible.
That way it’s possible.
But it has to be pretty radical.
But it is radical, mon petit! You can’t imagine, it’s like…. I could really say I’ve become another person. Only this (Mother indicates the appearance of her body) is still like this, the same as it was…. To what extent will it be able to change? Sri Aurobindo said that if the physical mind is transformed, the body’s transformation will follow quite NATURALLY. We’ll see.
But could you give me a key or a lever to effect the radical change?
Ah, I don’t know, because for me everything was simply taken away — the mind is completely gone. If you like, in appearance I had become an idiot, I didn’t know anything. And it’s the physical mind that developed, slowly, slowly.
In my case, I don’t know, the work was done for me — I did nothing. That’s how it was done, very radically. It could be done because I was VERY conscious of my psychic (the psychic being which was formed through all the lives), I was very conscious of it, and it remained; it remained and enabled me to deal with people without its making any difference, thanks to that psychic presence. That’s why there were very few apparent changes. So I can speak only of what I know, and I’ll say this: the psychic has to remain very much in command of the whole being — the whole bodily being — guiding the life, then the mind has time to be transformed. Mine was simply sent away.
You see, the transformation of the bodily mind was indispensable because that’s the only one I had left, you follow?… Very few people would accept that. (Laughing) In my case, it was done without asking my opinion! The work was very easy.
That’s exactly what happened.
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I wish something drastic would happen to me….
(Mother laughs)
For instance, I was thinking (it’s childish), but I was thinking
the other day: if I could just see with Sri Aurobindo’s eyes….
(Mother laughs)
Instead of seeing through my eyes, let me see things through
his eyes.
But it wasn’t his physical eyes. It wasn’t his physical eyes.
I wish it could be like that. But is it possible?
You mean to see with Sri Aurobindo’s consciousness?
Yes, that’s right. But to see people, things, circumstances
PHYSICALLY, that way.
It’s possible. It’s possible…. But would you accept what happened to me, that is, the individual, the person feels itself absolutely stupid?
Oh, I’m ready!
You wouldn’t despair?
No, no. Absolutely not.
You see, what’s taking root permanently, as it were, is this: the nonentity of the person — the absolute nonentity and incapacity. And then you’re … you’re fine; you’re quite naturally like a child, you say to the Divine, “Do everything for me” (there’s nothing left, so you can’t do anything!), then everything goes well immediately — immediately.
You see, the body has given itself entirely. It even said to the Divine, “I beg You to make me want my dissolution if I must die,” so that EVEN THERE I won’t offer any resistance, should it be necessary for this body to die — to want my dissolution. That’s its attitude, it was like this (gesture of open hands). But instead, there
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came a sort of … (I could put it into words, but it wasn’t words): "If you accept suffering and discomfort, transformation is better than dissolution." And so when it feels uncomfortable, it accepts.
It’s not like that; what I say is [inadequate]. It’s not really like that, but it’s hard to explain. It’s really a new attitude and a new sensation, I can’t express it.
And for each one obviously it must be different…. For me it was very radical — I didn’t have any choice, you understand: it was like that, and that’s that.
But we truly have to…. What made things easy is that the psychic consciousness was completely in the forefront and ruling the life, so it just went on quietly without being concerned with the rest.
It’s like sight and hearing, I’ve noticed that it’s not a physical deterioration: it’s simply that I understand and hear people only when they think clearly what they say. And I see only what is … what expresses the inner life, otherwise things are … hazy or veiled. It’s not that my eyes don’t see, it’s “something,” it’s something else — everything is new.
(silence)
It was what Sri Aurobindo told me when I asked to leave (we both knew one of us had to go); I immediately said to him, “I will go.” And he said no, he told me, “Your body is much more capable than mine of bearing the work of transformation.” Sri Aurobindo told me that. And so it accepted, but….
It’s true, the body has to be VERY goodwilled — it so happens that mine is; and it’s not a mental goodwill, of course, it’s really a bodily goodwill. It accepts, it accepts all the drawbacks…. But the attitude is important, not the consequences (I am convinced that the drawbacks are not indispensable), it’s the attitude that is important. It has to be like this (gesture of open hands), you see. Truly I have noticed that in most cases, surrender to the Divine does not mean trust in the Divine — because when you surrender to the Divine, you say, “Even if You make me suffer, I surrender,” but that’s an absolute lack of trust! That’s really amusing, surrender DOES NOT IMPLY trust; trust is something else, it’s … a kind of knowledge — an unshakable knowledge, which nothing can disturb — it’s WE who change into difficulties, suffering, misery what is … perfect peace in the Divine Consciousness. It’s we who create that little “transformation.”
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And I had some extraordinary examples…. It would take hours to describe.
But it’s really the consciousness that must change — and even the consciousness OF THE CELLS, you understand?… That, that’s a radical change.
And there are no words to express it, because it didn’t exist on earth — it was latent, but it wasn’t manifested.
All words … miss the mark, that’s never quite it.
(silence)
If you like, I could say that at each minute you feel you can either live eternally or die (gesture of a slight tilt from one side to the other). Every minute is like that. And the difference [between the two] is so slight that you can’t say: Do this and you’ll be on this side, do that and you’ll be on the other — not possible. It’s a way of being almost beyond description.
(silence)
When did you come to the Ashram?
Seventeen years ago, Mother.
Did you see Sri Aurobindo?
Yes, once.
On the 24th of November? When?
I don’t remember now when I saw him, but it was in 1947.
Oh, in 1947 — three years….
I saw him only once.
Only once?
(silence,
then Mother goes within for a long time)
Did you feel anything?
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Your force very much. The Force very much, yes.
(Mother shakes her head no)
It’s such an extraordinary Peace. Don’t you feel it?
Yes, I feel Force, Peace, Power….
But me, when it’s like this, I become aware that there is no time anymore. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s entirely outside of time — it may be a minute, it may be an hour…. Something else.
(Satprem leaves,
Sujata goes up to Mother)
And you? What do you feel?
For me, Mother, it’s very physical.
Yes.
Physical — an absolute silence….
Ah!
… Everywhere, inside, outside.
It’s physical, isn’t it? That’s it, PHYSICAL.
Tensed nerves relax, absolutely.
Yes, that’s it. That’s good. Good.
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