August 20, 1969
(The Vatican disciple has arrived in Pondicherry)
I saw PL…. There are two things, first a personal one, then a more
general one. He said the last time he saw you, after leaving you he
went to the Samadhi, and there he suddenly had an extremely sharp
pain in the lower abdomen. But he said it was very strange because
it didn’t feel like an ordinary pain: it didn’t stop him from walk
ing about, but it remained centered there – a sharp pain.
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As for me, I am afraid those people there may have cast a spell on him.
You think it’s that? … I don’t know; when he said that, I felt it
was one of the lower "centers" that was touched by the Light.
(Mother shakes her head) And did that pain stay long?
I don’t know, for maybe fifteen or twenty minutes.
And then gone.
It was after seeing you, while he was at the Samadhi.
I think those people are quite capable. of casting a spell.
Yes, but you being here, it shouldn’t have the power to touch him.
Ah, no, it’s not like that! It’s done consciously against … not against him, but against what lie receives here. So it changes his personal sensation (they’re very skilled at those things); to his personal sensation, the sense of Ananda, of … (it’s not quite a "joy," it’s really the Ananda of the presence of the Force) is turned into pain. That they know how to do. For the very sensation.
Because it’s well known that in a general way, when the Light
touches the lower centers, sometimes it provokes this violent
sensation.
Yes … But it didn’t hurt him; I mean he felt in pain, but it didn’t hurt him.
It didn’t, it had no physical effect.
Yes, that’s right.
You see, if there were nothing in his mental or vital or physical makeup to respond to those people’s force, he wouldn’t have felt any pain – but there’s necessarily something. And that’s what made him feel it as a pain, whereas it’s not a true pain.
Certainly there is still something in him that can get afraid (that I saw), and its enough. It acts as a link.
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Is he going back, or staying some more time?
He is staying for a few weeks.
Then I’ll see him once more, because I’d like to try and do something.
The day before that incident, lie had a vision (I don’t know if
there’s any connection). He was with me, we were walking together
on a mountain road; I was holding his hand. Then, after some
time, he felt tired; he said to me, "Oh, I am tired." But I was
holding his hand, and I told him, "Come." We walked on in that
mountain, then once again he said, "You are going too fast for
me, I can’t follow you." Again I told him, "Come," and pulled
him along. Then we reached the top of that mountain, it was al
l in light, and there was a sort of precipice. And it seems I hurled
him into the precipice- without any violence, any movement of
passion: I simply flung him into the precipice. And he went
down-he told me, "It wasn’t a fall, it was rather a descent; I
wasn’t at all going to crash down at the bottom: I was just going
down." And he saw my eyes at the top. He felt no passion, no
violence, nothing of that sort in me, but simply, quietly, I hurled
him into the void.
It means his mind is affected.
Affected?
Yes, by them.
(long silence)
I’ll see him one more time.
Shall I go on?
Yes, yes.
He told me he felt he was going to be excluded from the Vatican
this year.
Oh!
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He’s had that sensation. He said, "They will do it as they usu
ally do; they generally give you a promotion somewhere: they
might, for instance, nominate me bishop of [such and such a
country]." Then he would be driven out of the Vatican. But when
something of that kind happens, you are put "under the Holy
Office," which means you cannot talk to anyone and are obliged
to answer with yes or no. "If this situation comes," asks PL.,
"what shall I do? Should I fight it out to assert my place at the
Vatican, because they must give me the reasons for my exclu
sion" (he can openly challenge their intentions), "or should I
accept, get caught tip in the meshes of a post such as that of
bishop [of such and such a country], with, at the same time, a
rather widespread sphere of action-should I accept that? Or
what should I do in that case?" His sensation is that he is going
to be excluded from the Vatican this year.
Officially, is it the Pope who does it, or the cardinals?
It’s always on the cardinals’ suggestion. It’s not the Pope who
does it, it’s merely put to his signature.
No, but I mean …
No, no! I don’t think the Pope has anything against P.L., but
there’s a small clique around him which manipulates things-
and imprisons him.
Yes, that’s it, he is imprisoned.
Yes, PL. told me, "He is imprisoned.
What’s his post at the Vatican?
He is on the tribunal that rules on all divorce cases and so on.
It’s called the "Rota," and it’s the highest ecclesiastical tribunal.
And what is he there?
I think there are six judges, and he is one of them.
It’s better he doesn’t stay there.
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It’s better? … Should he accept a "Promotion" elsewhere?
Yes. It doesn’t matter.
Are those people paid?
Yes. They’re playing all kinds of nasty tricks on him, by paying
him less, in fact; they play all kinds of dirty tricks to try and drive
him away.
It’s better he goes.
Should he go on his own authority, or wait for the time to come?
No, let him wait.
(silence)
That’s the first lesson one must learn in order to do the true work: not to have any self-regard. Things must roll off you without affecting you. That’s VERY IMPORTANT.
(silence)
Are bishops free to do what they like? I mean, can they travel?
Yes, yes.
They can?
Yes, they have great independence. Of course, they must refer all
religious decisions, but otherwise they are very free.
In their private lives.
Yes.
If they do that, it will be good.
He just has to stay still.
Is there something else?
Yes, he has had a vision of a much more general order. All of a
sudden he had the sensation that the Pope was dead. It was the
same atmosphere as at the time of Pius XII’s death and John XXIII’s
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death: "The Pope is dead." Then all the cardinals met in a conclave
closeted to elect a new Pope as usual. And they couldn’t manage
to elect a new Pope; time was passing, but they couldn’t manage
to elect a new Pope-the Pope was dead, but they couldn’t elect one.
Then, suddenly, on the Vatican fell a bomb – all the cardinals
were crushed, the whole Vatican was crushed by that bomb. And
all at once, he saw that bomb turn into a sort of golden sun, or
golden ball, and out of all the Vatican’s museums (which had
been crushed-those places where there were Michelangelos and
all those treasures), there came an army of rats!
(Mother laughs)
… Rats and "malformed" beasts, he told me. Out of all those
treasures of the Vatican, there only came rats all over the place ….
And at the same time, there was the sensation of those few hun
dred millions of faithful who were there, wondering, "What are
we to do? What are we going to do? …
It’s interesting.
(silence)
Are the Popes always elected from among the cardinals?
Always, yes, from among the College of Cardinals. [[There were exceptions, as we shall see later (on 13 September). ]]
(long silence)
There have already been two more Popes than what had been predicted.
Really?
The last two: this one and the preceding one. We’ll see.
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